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1. Penguin In Bondage
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From: dflync01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (David F Lynch)
so which parts came from spring '74? Dummy Up, possibly? Parts of
"Penguin in Bondage"?
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From: Biffyshrew (biffyshrew@aol.com)
Excellent spotting, Dave (Not David): "Penguin" is indeed edited together
from performances by the two different lineups. Part of it has Jeff but
not Ruth; part of it has Ruth but not Jeff.
In fact, as far as I can tell, the only parts of "Penguin" that are
definitely from the Roxy are the "preamble" and the second verse. Note
the conspicuous change in sound at 2:16 where it cuts from the '74 band
(with trumpet, rhythm guitar and Don Preston's distinctive synth warbling)
to the Roxy band (without those instruments, but with marimba). There is
a short bit at 6:04 that sounds like it could be edited in from the Roxy
(I can *almost* hear the ring-off of some mallet percussion), but the
consistency in the vocal sound between this bit and the next makes me
doubt it.
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3. Dummy Up
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From: Name deleted:-)))
"Dummy Up" is from spring '74, as Jeff's presence proves
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From: "JWB" <mudshark@ptdprolog.net>
Absoluelty wrong. It is from the Roxy 1973, as seen in "The True
Story Of 200 Motels".
Jeff Simmons was a special guest for this performance.
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From: Bill Lantz <lantz@primenet.com>
He was on stage at the Roxy too as the True Story of 200 Motels showed us.
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7. Cheepnis
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From: redunzle@aol.com (REDUNZLE)
Is the munchkin voice an overdub? If not, it sure sounds like it features
the same technique as WOIIFTM: tape speed alteration.
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From: Biffyshrew (biffyshrew@aol.com)
No, Napoleon Murphy Brock simply turned into a munchkin live on stage at
the Roxy.
(Seriously, "Cheepnis" is heavily overdubbed. The voice effect, as far as
I can tell, is simply a sped-up tape effect from the studio. Compare the
YCDTOSA2 version.)
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From: Chris Opperman
who are those girls that sing "Cheepnis?"
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From: Charles Ulrich
The female back-up vocalists on Cheepnis are, according to the liner
notes, "Debbi and Lynn", who also appeared on
"Apostrophe".
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From: TAN Mitsugu (a930m14m@eds.ecip.nagoya-u.ac.jp
Overdub sessions with Debbi and Lynn (plus Ruben Ladron De Guevara and
Robert Camarena, I guess) occured in early 1974. Some of their back-up
vocals can be heard on "Apostrophe(')" (at least "Stink Foot") and on
"Cheepnis" from "Roxy & Elsewhere."
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Subject: Re: OH NO vs. ORANGE COUNTY LUMBER TRUCK
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From: sandell@sparky.parmly.luc.edu (Gregory J. Sandell)
Roxy & Elsewhere track SON OF ORANGE COUNTY. It starts out with Napolean
singing material clearly from the tail part of OH NO ("and in your dreams
you can see yourself...") just before the point at which the switch to
ORANGE COUNTY LUMBER TRUCK occurs (on Weasles Ripped My Flesh, that is).
This suggests that Frank associated this melodic part with ORANGE
COUNTYLUMBER TRUCK. Otherwise, wouldn't Frank have named the track "SON
OF OH NO"?
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From: "JWB" <mudshark@ptdprolog.net>
You're all missing the point. It's a reference to Richard Nixon,
who was born and raised in Orange County. He is therefore a direct product of
Orange County, or the " Son Of Orange County". The title doesn't
refer to the song itself, but to Nixon.
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From: dankitti99@aol.com
The R&A Son Of Oh No...er, I mean Oh No seems to be about Richard Nixon
("I am not a crook!"), and is actually a slower arrangement of the coda
from Oh No. After an uptempo instrumental reprise of the "And in your
dreams" section it goes straight to the "Don't come in me in me" bit, but
skips almost all of The Orange County Lumber Truck's musical material. In
other words, Son Of Orange County is an abbreviation of both Oh No and The
Orange County Lumber Truck.
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Title should be.........Son Of Oh No and Orange County? Oh No It's The
Son Of Orange County?
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Ahead Of Their Times lists Son Of Orange County Part 1, Oh No, Son Of
Orange County Part 2 -- Part 2 is the full length version of the same
recording excerpted on WRMF.
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From: AJ Wilkes <u6n71@keele.ac.uk>
The band played the whole medley live - Oh No, then the coda bit
which also appears on Weasels, then More Trouble. For the record
(no pun intended), only the coda part was included; I think that
it was renamed Son Of Orange County as a reference to Richard Nixon
rather than as a reference to the Orange County songs from previous
times. Thus it now stands on it's own as a different song outside
of its previous context - view the lyrics in the Nion context, and
they make very interesting reading.
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From: "CHRISTOPHER E. EKMAN" <Cekman@pomona.edu>
Most people seem to be saying that the title Son of Orange County refers
only to Nixon, not to the "in your dreams" melody. But may I deg to
biffer? In the Real FZ Songbook, which I own, is mine, and will
continue to be possessed by me, the transcription of Oh No ends at "do
you really think it can be told?", without going on to "and in your
dreams." So perhaps the "dreams" bit really does "belong" to Orange
County.
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From: Frank Zappa, in concert, 11/17/74)
This is simultaneously an old song and a new song. It happens to be one
of the tunes from an album called 'Weasles Ripped My Flesh', and in a new,
semi-tweaked version, recorded in Edinboro Pennsylvania, it appears on our
new album. Name of this song is 'Oh No, I Don't Believe It', followed by
'Trouble Every Day'.
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From: AJ Wilkes <u6n71@keele.ac.uk>
This performance would have had the entire Oh No performed; listen
to the version on Unmitigated Audacity and hear how it fades in
half way through Oh No.
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General Notes
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Subject: who the hell is in the band?
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From: AJ Wilkes <u6n71@keele.ac.uk>
All players except Don and Walt (Jeff was guesting) are at the Roxy. All
players except Ruth and Ralph (?) are at the Spring '74 shows.
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From: dflync01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (David F Lynch) wrote:
so which parts came from spring '74? Dummy Up, possibly? Parts of
"Penguin in Bondage"?
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From: Biffyshrew (biffyshrew@aol.com
"Penguin" is indeed edited together from performances by the two different
lineups. Part of it has Jeff but not Ruth; part of it has Ruth but not
Jeff.
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From: Jon Naurin (naurin@mbox300.swipnet.se)
Apart from parts of PiB, my guess everything except for "Son of Orange
County" and "More Trouble Every Day" are from the Roxy. I think I hear a
rhythm guitar and a 3-piece horn section in SoOC and MTED, but I'm not
sure. "Dummy Up" is from the Roxy, as the True story of 200 Motels video
proves. Apparently, Jeff appeared as guest for at least one of the Roxy
shows
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From: AJ Wilkes <u6n71@keele.ac.uk>
Remember that even if those tunes HAD been from the Roxy, the horn
and guitar could have been overdubbed. Even so, there is no Ruth,
and only one drummer (Chester) - or am I wrong on the last part???
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..a clue straight from the source:
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So that would make the sources as follows?
(please correct if you can)
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1.
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Penguin In Bondage
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Roxy and Spring '74?
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2.
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Pygmy Twylyte
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Roxy
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3.
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Dummy Up
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Roxy
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4.
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Village Of The Sun
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Roxy
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5.
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Echidna's Arf (Of You)
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Roxy
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6.
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Don't You Ever Wash That Thing?
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Roxy
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7.
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Cheepnis
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Roxy
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8.
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Son Of Orange County
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Edinboro, PA
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9.
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More Trouble Every Day
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Edinboro, PA
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10
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. Be-Bop Tango
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Roxy
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Also, what are the dates on these shows?
Foggy G? Anyone? I gotta know!!!
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From: Jon Naurin
This is in the R&E liner notes. The none-Roxy portions are from the
Mothers day concert 5/11/74, Auditorium Theatre, Chicago (late show), and
5/8/74, Edinboro State College. Unfortunately, I've never heard of tapes
circulating from any of these shows, so it's not easy to tell which songs
come from which shows. Also, I don't think Village/Echidna/Wash That Thing
and BeBop Tango were part of the May '74 band's repertoire, and don't
forget any song including Ruth has to be from the Roxy, so I think your
list above is rather correct.
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From: Biffyshrew (biffyshrew@aol.com)
Important point: The Roxy band was an 8-piece lineup of FZ, Napoleon,
Ruth, Duke, Bruce & Tom Fowler, Chester and Ralph H. (Jeff Simmons wasn't
in the band even though he did make a non-playing guest appearance, as
seen in The True Story Of 200 Motels.) My evidence for this is (1) FZ's
stage announcement at the end of the album, (2) the credits for "Dickie's
Such An Asshole" on YCDTOSA3, and (3) contemporary reviews of the
concerts. Most written sources (such as
Miles and Gray) have this wrong
because they see the musicians credited on the Roxy album and assume that
ALL those musicians were in the band at the same time.
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From: AJ Wilkes <u6n71@keele.ac.uk>
Also, the band existed for over a month on the road before Roxy
concerts, and for up to a maximum of six weeks (though more likely
less) rehearsal after the '73 summer tour finished.
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From: Dan the Kitty man
How much of Roxy & Elsewhere is Roxy, and how much is Elsewhere? Note,
the Road Tapes (elsewhere) have not been overdubbed and the Roxy material
was, so it should be easy to figure out. Note, overdubbed vocals in
Village Of The Sun and (um um nummy nummy num) Cheepnis.
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From: "JWB" <mudshark@ptdprolog.net>
I think it would be safe to assume that parts of "Penguin" are from
Chicago, since Frank has said that "Orange County/More Trouble" is
from Edinboro.
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From: Jon Naurin (naurin@mbox300.swipnet.se)
Well, since not *all* of the Roxy material is overdubbed, that's probably
not the easiest way to tell the difference. It should be better to figure
which instruments are playing - the line-ups of the Roxy and the Elsewhere
bands differed a bit (the Elsewhere band had Simmons, Preston & Walt
Fowler but no Ruth).
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For example, "Son of Orange County" has rhythm guitar, three horns, and no
marimba - most likely from the road tapes, like "Trouble every Day".
"Penguin in Bondage" is made up from both sources, as Biffy informed us a
few months ago. The rest of the stuff (I think) either has Ruth or
overdubs, so they are from the Roxy. "Dummy Up" is from the Roxy too,
though features Simmons.
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Any proposal? I'd like to hear!